Dr. Peter MacMillan
Lawyer & Cognitive scientist, CEO of Meisterline, LONDON
Pamela DeNeuve: Welcome to Lawyer of the Week. I am delighted to have our guest Dr. Peter Macmillan is a lawyer and a cognitive scientist. He is the Founder & CEO of Meisterline® ® and author of the book “Unlocking the Secrets of Legal Genius: Measuring Specialist Legal Expertise Through Think-Aloud Verbal Protocol Analysis.”
He is one of the world’s leading authorities on how expert lawyers think. Dr. Peter Macmillan began his legal career as a competition law specialist in 1992 and went on to work for major corporate law firms and government authorities in both Australia and Hong Kong.
In 2006 he resigned as Head of Competition Law at an international law firm, completed a Ph.D. in law and cognitive science, established the Meisterline Analytics research lab, and in 2016 launched the world’s first cognition-based lawyer rating service, the Meisterline Index.™ You can find out more about Dr. Peter Macmillan’s work at meisterline.com
Dr. Peter Macmillan so pleased to have you today.
Dr. Peter Macmillan: Thanks, Pamela; it’s great to be here.
Pamela DeNeuve I’d like to ask you our Lawyer of the Week questions. The first question is when and what made you decide to become a lawyer?
Dr. Peter Macmillan: Well Pam I grew up in Australia, actually in a small rural community in Tasmania, which is the island state. I didn’t have any contacts with lawyers as I was growing up.
I went to university to study economics, but after my first year, the university invited me to study law so I could get a law degree and an economics degree. Just by doing a five-year overall term of study. In Australia law is an undergraduate degree, unlike the US. So, I just took the opportunity.
I had no idea what being a lawyer was all about. That’s how I finished off at the university. When I graduated, I worked for the government as a Competition Law Specialist, and from there I went on to law firms.
It just seems to me that combining economics and that law was great for Competition Law. Because I think we’ve spoken before how as a competition lawyer you have to apply economic principles, so it was perfect for me. But, I had no idea and no plan that I would end up where I did.
Pamela DeNeuve: That’s very interesting. When you were in high school or grammar school, did you think about being something like a scientist or something like that? Did you always like science?
Dr. Peter Macmillan: Pamela, actually I wanted to be a drummer. With all my heart I wanted to be the world’s greatest drummer.
In fact, before I started studying economics I wanted to go study music at university. But I decided, in the end, there was probably more of a career for me if I studied economics.
I think it’s interesting because now that I’ve studied cognitive science later in life I think it really is something that appeals to me and something that I’m good at. But, it also has a lot of similarities with the law. You have empirical evidence to try to understand how things work. It’s the same type of principle; it’s not unrelated.
I think like a lot of people’s careers if you look at it as you’re going through it doesn’t seem like there is much of a pattern or much of a line but when you look back, I think it all connects pretty well.
Pamela DeNeuve: That is true. I found that to be true. Well, let me ask you our next question then. Tell us about your life as a lawyer your biggest wins and your biggest challenges?
Dr. Peter Macmillan: Okay. I had a very specialized area of practice Competition Law, Antitrust Law in the US. This meant that I had to move to a big city in Australia that was Melbourne also to the equivalent of Washington in Australia, which is Canberra because I had to go to those markets where my highly specialized skills were valued.
Similarly, when I went to Hong Kong I was able to work in the competition area and in Hong Kong at the time, it was very limited Competition Law, and only in the telecommunication sector, they’ve just introduced a new merger and acquisition law. That’s where I wrote the first three merger decisions in Hong Kong in terms of Competition analysis. So that was a great achievement-that was one of my successes.
Also, there was that challenge of maintaining that career. When you look at expert lawyers you know they always have to be increasing the challenge of the work they do, and if you stay in a small town, it’s very difficult to do. So there is a very neat saying. It says some people have plenty years of experience and some people have one year of experience twenty times.
So you have to be that person who is challenged again and again so that you will grow as an expert. That was a challenge for me. I had to keep moving around. I suspect a lot of experts would do that unless, of course, you have already started in London or New York or something like that.
Pamela DeNeuve: I am just kind of curious how did you end up in Hong Kong? Was it just to find the variety or to be an expert or in a big city where you could learn and grow?
Dr. Peter Macmillan: Pamela, in fact, when I was young growing up in this rural community in Australia my mother had National Geographic magazines, and I would flip through them, and I would see the world and Hong Kong was actually one of place that really appealed to me.
But in terms of Competition Law development there wasn’t much going on; only in the telecommunication sector. So again, I was very focused and targeted. I wanted to get a job with the government where I would be able to, for instance, write these mergers and acquisition decisions. So I really focused on that.
I think in Asia now competition lawyers are becoming more established. But, at the time it was a bit like a frontier area of law. That really excited me. I think doing new things in Asia, and Competition Law is what really motivated me. Again, you’ve got to be really interested in what you’re doing maybe you look at things in different ways just to keep that motivation up. It’s hard work as well.
Pamela DeNeuve: You said you were the one that wrote the first three cases?
Dr. Peter Macmillan: That’s right. So the name was actually under the Telecommunications Authority. But when the cases first came in and these were some really interesting cases with Mainland China companies wanted to buy Hong Kong telecommunication companies. So establishing those precedents from the start was really good and then, of course, you find people quoting your work. I felt a little bit like a judge although I was just an official in the government department. I think again because it was new it was a real challenge, so I really enjoyed that.
Pamela DeNeuve: That’s great. Now, who would you say is the perfect user of you lawyer expertise rating service?
Dr. Peter Macmillan: When General Counsel, In-House Counsel, Directors of legal operations, Professional Procurement Officers within client organizations who want to get lawyers. They have to do some due diligence and work out various things like: does the lawyer have a capability in a particular area what level of expertise they are at, and that’s exactly what Meisterline ratings do.
They are a quantification of the expertise of a lawyer in a specific area of law. My ideal client is someone who will. need to assess even a team of lawyers to see whether, for instance, you have a team.
For example, you’re In-house Counsel, and you’re looking to have a panel of law firms. Each of them would say have ten people on their teams. So you look at one. One would look a bit top-heavy because with the Meisterline ratings you can see actually some of them are very highly rated experts and then very few low rated experts.
But the next team would be one that has these very few high rated experts and a lot of lower level experts, so that’s probably the high leverage model. So with that type of analysis, you can then move on to return on expertise and say per unit of expertise that I’m buying what am I getting? How much does it cost?
So there’s lots of interesting managing metrics as well. So it really fits I think in the first instance in the In-House legal team department. I think they’re going to find the most value. And lawyers themselves or law firms they can look at the competition of their legal departments and say; what level of experts we have here whether some of them might be on the cusp of partnership and you can look at their development as a specialist in a particular area of law.
So we’re not limiting what people can use it for, but I think in the first instance it’s going to be those In-House Counsel. I think they are going to find it useful because they can put their ratings straight into a spreadsheet.
Pamela DeNeuve Peter how will the lawyers be rated? Will they take a test or will they go through some sort of analytics that they go through to determine what their rating is?
Dr. Peter Macmillan: Yes Pamela, that right. They will go to the Meister Line website, which is an online rating platform and they will take a half an hour to fill out a form, and it will ask lots of questions. And what we are trying to find out is their level of cognitive development, which is equivalent to their level of expertise in a specific area of law.
Now the first stages through which an expert develops their skills is something we have known about for a long time. If you go back to medieval Europe, you’ve got the novices, journeymen, apprentices and the masters. So we know about how the development takes place. We also know in more recent years cognitive scientists have given us an idea of the actual cognitive profiles of those lawyers in more technical terms.
What we have done at Meister Line we now have put numbers down at the bottom of this chart so we can quantify and can map those numbers onto cognitive development. So we get a very clear and concise measure of expertise of an individual lawyer.
Now the lawyers will have to take this test every year because over time their level of expertise will hopefully increase and we want to be able to capture that. So we keep it valid. Clients will simply ask lawyers for their writing. It will take a half an hour as I said and then lawyers will pay for it so clients won’t have to pay. They will have something they can show, and it is quantifiable. So clients can put it into a spreadsheet so they can compare different lawyers in terms of their level of expertise. So that’s the way it works. It shouldn’t be too inconvenient for lawyers but hugely powerful for the client.
Pamela DeNeuve: Yes it seems like the lawyers themselves would be able to measure their progress from year to year. It seems that it would be a valuable tool for them as well.
Dr. Peter Macmillan: Exactly, Pamela. And, even more than that, probably in the next generation of our platform we will be able to take a trajectory using statistical models we can find out whether a lawyer is on track to go to higher levels of expertise in their chosen area of law.
And certainly looking back say if a lawyer does it every five years, they will be able to track on a chart their level of expertise development. So that is really interesting not just for themselves but for their employers as well.
Pamela DeNeuve Excellent. Excellent. That is very interesting. Now we have already talked about In-House Counsel, but law firms will use it as well?
Dr. Peter MacMillan: Sure! We have a lot of interest from HR departments for obvious reasons. They can start to match up people for positions; they can find out whether someone deserves a promotion or a pay raise. Also if they are going into partnership, just on the cusp of partnership this will be one of the factors.
Something I need to emphasize. The Meisterline rating is a very powerful and precise tool. But it will usually be used alongside as a complement to other things people look for, like qualitative measures like how good is this lawyer at business development, how good are they at managing junior lawyers or working within a team? We look at the culpability of technical skills, which is at the core of what lawyers do, but it is not the whole game.
Pamela DeNeuve: That’s great. So really their expertise level will be clearly defined. This is really fascinating that you have developed this. So, what kind of legacy would you like to leave as a cognitive scientist who studies how legal experts think?
Dr. Peter MacMillan: I think that this Pamela, more or less describes. Because this is a new area of I suppose scientific investigation, being the first is something that I like to be able to do, a bit of a pioneer. I think if it becomes a standard if people see how useful and reliable it is to use then it will be gratifying. I think it is really a powerful tool. So we are currently rolling it out in different jurisdictions around the world. And another thing that is going to happen is we can actually apply these models outside of the law. We are talking about the law now but we can apply it to engineering, people in finance, and people are already contacting us because they want to understand how they can use our modelling in other areas. So, I think if it becomes more broadly used in the professional communities that would be extremely gratifying.
Pamela DeNeuve: That’s very exciting. We are going to change it a little bit. What is one thing that you do to manage your stress levels?
Dr. Peter MacMillan: Sure. Pamela this is something I did when I was practicing law, and I still do with Meisterline® and my work as a scientist, and that is I go and see a psychologist to just work through some of the issues that are happening at home and work. I think like a lawyer we like to think about our own thinking. It is something I discovered as a scientist studying lawyers. When you think about it, how lawyers think is our stock in trade. If I had the ability to speak with a psychologist about how I am thinking and the problems I am having and that psychologist can come back and help me put in context what is happening and can help guide me through those things. That is hugely useful. I think it is important to have someone who is capable as a psychologist but someone who is not a family member or at work. You don’t have to worry about the burden you are placing on them. I think that gives you a lot of freedom. Exploring your thinking with someone who is trained to do that is hugely important. In terms of stress, sometimes you get stressed for no good reason so we can discover that. Other stresses are very real, and we have to get to the root of why that is happening, but we can work through them. There is no stress that can’t be managed in some way. It is something I learned by going to counselors and psychologists. The thing I recommend to a lot of people.
Pamela DeNeuve: Yes that is so true. You know they have rolled out the new Lawyer Well-Being Report they are asking lawyers to actually look and see if they need to go and get outside help. It is an important thing to do. There is a saying that you can’t get the entire picture yourself because you are inside the frame. So someone outside of the frame can give us a much better interpretation of what we might be experiencing.
Peter I have to tell you that this is so exciting rolling out. It is going to be helpful in so many different ways. And, for you to be the first develop this, and for you to see the need. I think the need is going to increase as time goes on because the legal profession is getting more and more competitive and lawyers are going to take the Meisterline® so that they can show their level of expertise and become more desirable and sought after as lawyers.
Dr. Peter MacMillan: Yes that is right Pamela. I think it is a differentiator and because it is quantifiable, you can say I am worth the fees that you are paying me because I am this level of expert. It is also finding these hidden gems of people and but also lawyers that claim to be very good but when you look at it are not as capable as they are presenting themselves to be.
When it comes down to it, Meisterline® is about transparency. It also fits into the economics because we have a market of legal professionals, but it is very difficult to see what you are buying. Even if you ask a lawyer on a rating of 1 – 10 how good are you? They would be scratching their heads, clients scratching their heads because it is an unknown quantity. With Meisterline® we are opening this line of expertise adding transparency, and once you have transparency, you can make better decisions on both sides.
Pamela DeNeuve: Absolutely. Well, Peter thanks you for being our Lawyer of the Week. We really appreciate your sharing this information. I think it will be new for a lot of people, especially in the U.S. so this is great. So we appreciate your making time to share your information with us this week.
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