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Pamela DeNeuve

Lawyer & Law Firm Peak Performance Strategist

The Lawyer of the Week Episode 6, South Africa

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Nic Swart

CEO of the Law Society of South Africa

Director of Lead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HUaM3jXGHQ&feature=youtu.be

Interview Transcript

Pamela: Hello, my name is Pamela DeNeuve, and I’d like to welcome you to Lawyer of the Week. Today I’m so privileged to introduce you to Nic Swart from South Africa. Nic is the Chief Executive Officer of the Law Society of South Africa, and also he’s the Director of the Legal Education And Development, which is LEAD. Welcome, Nic we’re so happy to have you.

Nic: Hi Pamela how are you, good to see you and hear you again.

Pamela: Yes it’s very nice thank you so much for giving us the honor of being here.

Before we begin, I’d like to tell you a little bit about Nic. Nic is currently the CEO of the Law Society of South Africa, he’s also the Director of Legal Education And Development, which is LEAD, a division of the Law Society of South Africa. Now Nic was formerly the Professor Extraordinary of the University of Pretoria.

He’s also been a Senior Lecturer at N.W.U Law Faculty. He has been a practicing attorney, a practicing advocate. He has been the first receiver of the Lexus Nexus South Africa Rule of Law Award in 2015.

Nic has developed the School of Legal Practice for a pilot from ten centers; he’s increased from 51 to 1200 students per year.

To date, 26,000 law graduates have received training since 1990. He established the Legal Education And Development Division in 2003, 10,000 enrollments per annum. Is that correct Nic?

Nic: It’s 10,000 for the entire education of the division yes.

Pamela: He oversees 75 full time and 600 part time professional, training professionals and he is a member of various law faculty boards and committees, and we can go on. Hello, Nic I’m so glad that you’re here today. Thank you.

And I’d like to ask you a few questions.

Nic: Yes absolutely. I am delighted.

Pamela: So first of all when and what made you decide to become an attorney?

Nic: Well I think I should first tell you when I was 17 years old and I was aiming for medicine. And I thought that was exciting. I don’t know whether I thought at that date much about the income. But, you know I was really set on the way. Then I had a very supportive teacher who probably saw that I had some potential to communicate and to speak. She really made a point of enrolling me for public speaking competitions and debating events.

And it just went well, and I thought well that became a passion. I really enjoyed it tremendously to be engaged with people in a group context. So I think when that happens you ask yourself you know what is it that you would like to do and that you believe you could do well? So I forgot about the medicine idea, and you know I don’t think I’ve ever regretted that before that I’ve made the choice.

Pamela: Wonderful, yes and you’ve been able to contribute to a lot of people. Did you ever think that you would be so involved in education when you first became a lawyer?

Nic: Well to be quite honest with you I think I became aware that there are aspects which one would like to make a contribution to. Yes, I think it was probably somewhere even at the time, but I qualified, and I practiced, and then I was invited to be a guest lecturer at University for some time, which I did. And then I just decided that I’m going to go to teaching.

And so I was there for about three years, and then the Law Society established a new project, and they invited me to participate in that. And I think that was really a turning point in my life you know, you know you do something for the sake of having a career and then something life-changing happens, You do what is really touching.

Pamela: How long have you been with the Law Society now Nic?

Nic: Well I’ve been with legal education in total 29 years. And I’ve been in the CEO position for 6 years.

Pamela: Wonderful, now tell us a little bit about your work with the Law Society and describe your greatest achievements and your greatest challenges?

Nic: Well you know I will tell you that in education you mention the issue of the School for Legal Practice. We had in this country, and I think it’s well known and prior to 1994, we had a situation that many in the country were marginalized and had not received proper education training.

And that created an opportunity for me really to be at a time, at a wonderful time in our history, to get it to the right place. So we established the School for Legal Practice of which the intention was to shorten the period for people to qualify, to assist in transformation and also to really ensure that there is quality in the training.

You know that a future lawyer would not only have to depend on the work that he or she is exposed to; maybe in a small practice but, could get additional value and it worked. Twenty-six thousand people have gone through the program. They have been wonderful people who have contributed from all over in this program.

So I think if you can call that an achievement, for me that is the greatest.

I think on the side of the C.E.O.; you ask yourself why? Why does your life take a particular direction but for me the last few years being a part of developing a Legal Practice Act that will fully come into force with the new Council next year.

It will create one regulator for the profession nationally and also over two parts of the profession, both the Attorneys and the Advocats. I think the contribution to that and the contribution to look at the educational model for that but also to work with the leadership in the profession was also a very enriching experience. So I would say that for me is great.

Pamela: And what would you say the biggest challenges are?

Nic: The challenges are really capacity. I think you live in a world now but doesn’t have all the resources that you need. So you have to make a plan.

And I think there’s so much more. I think that you and I have exchanged ideas about this in the past. If you talk about personal development, if you talk about specialization, in South Africa we need that. I think it’s a key.

And you know you just want to do more. You want to do more for the briefing of attorneys. You want to do more for the women lawyers. But it is a matter really of capacity. But you know I always learned in life that some stage when you really need it there is some way that you get it. .Somehow you make a plan just to get there.

Pamela: Yes as an aside I had the privilege actually presenting a program for the women lawyers in South Africa and I you know really appreciate that Nic reached out and it was a wonderful opportunity I think for all of us.

Nic: I’m so glad you made it. I think people can’t stop talking about that Pamela, that was great.

Pamela: Thank you. So what are your current goals for practitioners in South Africa?

Nic: Well you know I think that and I’m not exactly sure how people perceive our country you know. But, what we need in South Africa is we need to keep it independent judicially. And for that, I think it’s vitally important to have an independent profession, which is united and there are steps towards that.

And, you know we lawyers have to actually embrace, fully embrace the rule of law not only in an academic sense because that they do. Everybody says yes it’s great. But, how do I actually love the rule of law in my practice? And I think it’s very important to our Constitution.

I think that obviously what I really frequently at least hence that it might change, apparently there are some ideas about this. And to ensure that well, we’ve got a good Constitution that we protect it and I think for us it’s vital.

I think it’s vital also for our neighbors in the region in the southern parts of Africa. I think we share a lot of experiences and I think these practitioners are among the most courageous practitioners in the world. Practicing in countries close to us who are really sometimes really experiencing hardship. But we’ve got great lawyers that really want to make a change in this continent. We need to make the contribution also to the development of lawyers in Africa.

Pamela: Yes Absolutely thank you. Well, what legacy do you want to leave with all of your work with the Law Society. You’ve done so much over the years?

Nic: Sometimes when I think about it, some of the most enjoyable times in my work is spending time with a group of young lawyers. To particularly see their needs, to see what their dreams are, and what they do. You know people say that most of us will never have a monument. We will never have that kind of recognition.

But somebody said that your monuments are walking around in this world. I would really like to say to people that you know there were opportunities created that enabled me to grow and to advance in my career. If that happens, and I’m old, and I meet somebody, and I said you know you established something. And if I as a person grew from that experience, I mean that is for me the secret. That would be great. I mean that’s a sort of memory that I would like to take with me, really.

Pamela: Wonderful that’s a great legacy now just on a personal level name one thing you like to do to manage your stress levels?

Nic: Well you know this probably kept me, thinking. All of us are trying to find an ideal way to deal with our stress. But, I’m very lucky to have a family and a wife that absolutely just creates a life that’s there and that one can go to. I think about the stress that we experience in our work, that is the best we can offer. So I really live for that. It’s something to be grateful for.

Pamela: So when you leave the office you can go to a home and feel relaxed and away from the stress.

Nic: Yes and gain some energy for the next day.

Pamela: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for being our Lawyer of the Week Nic. We applaud you for the work that you’ve done there in South Africa and the legacy that you’re creating and will continue to create. So thank you so much.

 

Thank you for joining Lawyer of the Week!

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Pamela DeNeuve

pamela@pameladeneuve.com

pameladeneuve.com/blog

 

 

 

 

 

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Quotes from our Lawyer of the Week

  • I am here to protect the human rights and I will do the best in my capacity to do so.
    Diana Constantinidou
  • I love this work. I really do. To me, especially now more than ever, we need a strong news media. It’s not just a business. It’s part of our democracy.
    Edward Birk
  • You don’t have to be large and on the world stage to seize these opportunities and to apprehend these threats. It really is a function of the vision and the insight of the leaders. When they get it, then there’s an opportunity for them to persuade and help their partners get the message and act to remake themselves.
    George Beaton
  • I did not intend to create this legacy, but I see the ripple effects of it, and it’s so meaningful to me. I think that through the podcast, I’m also hoping to create a legacy of service to the profession.
    Okeoma Moronu
  • That’s one of the things that I find very satisfying; building bridges between people from different countries, working closely with them and seeking those deeply satisfying relationships that are created in cross-border trade and investment facilitation.
    John Grimley
  • I’m very lucky to have a family and a wife that absolutely just creates a life that’s there and that one can go to. I think about the stress that we experience in our work, that is the best we can offer. So I really live for that. It’s something to be grateful for.
    Nic Swart
  • The legacy that I want to leave in the work that I’m doing is having made a difference and having hopefully spearheaded some type of meaningful change in the culture of the legal profession, as it relates to addiction and mental health specifically.
    Patrick Krill
  • It’s not so much my practice that I want to make a difference in, but I want to know that I left the legal professional a little bit better than I found it.
    Courtney Wylie
  • the real reality is some of the lawyers, some of the law firms, are going to be left behind because they’re not moving into the current reality where they can’t just rely on referrals.
    Montina Portis
  • When you take a lawyer out of the system, you take the voice and the ability of the people to protect themselves from overreaching government and overreaching organizations out the equation.
    Ian Connor Bifferato
  • I think a lot of attorneys are very, obviously, economically driven, which is fine, because we all need to make a living. But, at the end of the day, I also think that we are in this profession to give back and I would like to see that happen to a greater degree.
    Dr. Jeanne-Mari Reteif
  • "I would like my clients to think of me as of being a valuable resource to them and a knowledgeable resource that helped them protect their business and the most valuable assets of their business, which is their inventions, their ideas, their brand and that they remember me as somebody they could go to at any time to help them protect their intellectual property assets.
    Crystal T. Broughan
  • The person I’m looking for is the one who is going to come along and say ok; we can’t just tweak what we do with law; we have to radically re-invent it.
    Ken Grady
  • So you have to be that person who is challenged again and again so that you will grow as an expert.
    Dr. Peter MacMillan
  • I always tell my clients and my friends and colleagues, it’s a two-way road. You know- you give, and you receive, you give back, and it keeps going that way. It’s wonderful.
    Fernanda Alem-Freitas
  • In terms of successes, I will tell you, having done this, I’ve gone much further and made more connections and more friends and more inroads into the industry much earlier in my career than I ever could have possibly imagined.
    Gene Quinn
  • my thinking was that I really need to understand what clients really wanted. So in order to really do a good job, I needed to find out what moves them, what kept them up at night.
    Silvia Hodges Silverstein
  • So when we talk about a legacy, it’s a legacy that people to this day tell me — oh, I remember working with your Grandfather and he was such an upright man. Wow, let’s hope they say that about me.
    Jordan W. Charness
  • this answer made me to become a lawyer instead of a mathematician.
    Anandavasagan K.
  • What I want to try to do is create the beacon, or the light toward, developing law firm culture, as in the legal profession culture in general...where they do find a sense of meaning, purpose, connection, joy and want to stay in the profession.
    Anne Brafford
  • it is my goal to try to increase diversity within our profession, and even for as long as I’m here, I will advocate for the inclusion of different perspectives, different peoples, and different ideas that can make this world a better place.
    Robert Johnson
  • I have learned a lot of things the hard way and if I can help others sort of avoid the mistakes I’ve made and have the vision I lacked, then that’s how I want to help
    Frank Ramos
  • "I’m sort of traditional with an edge. I have respect for tradition. I have respect for history, but I’m also very inquisitive. I like to, you know, sort of architect things.
    Mark A. Cohen
  • I am all or nothing. I believe that the world has enough mediocre people. I had a mentor tell me that once and I give 110% to everything I do.
    LaKeisha Randall
  • You’ll never know how high that peak can be unless you find recovery, and with recovery, anything is possible
    Brian Cuban
  • Being able to live and work anywhere in the world. And we do live, you know- we live in one of the most beautiful places in the world, in County Cork, Ireland now.
    Walt Hampton
  • You know, the best thing that anyone could possibly do is think about what’s important to them and get back to that really basic thing. Personally, professionally, financially. You know, where would you like to be? Because you can be there if you take a couple steps, you know? And it just- it can be incremental
    Bridget Venus Grimes
  • The people I represent have their own families and their own spouses and I see that vividly through my own experiences and trying to help them. I often try to, although perhaps not the easiest thing to do, but try to put myself into their shoes and approach a case with that regard.
    Mark A. Torres
  • My legacy really is to try to enhance the wellness of the members of our profession and to open up this dialog.
    Heidi K. Brown
  • At the end of my days, I want people to look back and say, "Yes, he really did make the world a better place and here are some concrete examples of places where he's influenced people, or influenced organizations, or cultures." So, if I can do that and leave that to the world, then I think I've done a pretty good job.
    Maurice L. Rabb
  • Pamela helped brought us a $12MM deal and was a key player to help finalize the negotiations. She was a valuable investment for our firm with a magnificent return on our investment.
    Bill L., Chairman of Litigation
  • I was on the verge of losing it. I felt confused and had no idea why I was practicing law in the first place. Pamela helped me to regain my enthusiasm and grow my practice enjoy my life again.
    Lewis M., Partner
  • I have worked as an in-house attorney for 20+ years with major corporations. I hired Pamela during a transition in my career. When I began working with Pamela, I needed clarity and direction as I forged a new path. Through Pamela's unique coaching techniques, I learned a tremendous amount about myself and what I wanted out of life. She helped me put plans in place, encouraged me and held me accountable for taking necessary actions. Coaching is clearly not just a business for Pamela. She truly cared about me and repeatedly went above and beyond to help me achieve the goals I set for myself. Pamela is highly knowledgeable and accomplished and I trust her judgment and coaching. I would highly recommend her to anyone who is looking to make a job or career change.
    Renee Cogdell Lewis
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    Lee Wallace
  • Pamela DeNeuve works with powerful men and women who look to the world like they have it all together. So that includes everyone who is successful because we all have skeletons in our closet. We all have an area of life that is painful or frustrating. While I looked like I had it all, a beautiful wife, a son who I have a great relationship and a long-time financial career, a growing business as a motivational speaker, something was missing. Something was off and I couldn't put my finger on it. Working with Pamela DeNeuve is one of the best things I have ever done. Her insight, her showing me the blind spots that I tried to ignore or avoid was an awakening. I have regained my enthusiasm again. I wake up with the wonder and excitement I had lost as the years wore on. I highly recommend Pamela DeNeuve's 8-hour intensive session. You will make quantum leaps in your career, increase your income and your wife will become the love of your life again.
    Tom Heitz
  • Any lawyer or law firm who want to expand their practice, increase client base, or re-ignite your love of the law will be wise to work with Pamela DeNeuve as your business/marketing coach. She has more than 25 years of experience working with AM100 law firms, small firms, and individual lawyers across the United States, in Asia, and South Africa. Pamela understands all aspects of the legal profession. She understands the challenges that we attorneys face. I retained Pamela to help with business development and some special projects in my First Amendment/Communications law practice. Almost immediately, I started to once again see opportunities in the challenges rather than the other way 'round. Practicing law is more enjoyable because of this work with Pamela. Asking for help is sometimes the hardest ask of all. After working with Pamela for her help, I'm glad I asked. I highly recommend her to any attorney or firm.
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