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Pamela DeNeuve

Lawyer & Law Firm Peak Performance Strategist

Lawyer of the Week Episode 9, Special Edition Part III – Lawyer Well-Being

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Courtney Wylie

Member of the National Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being
Professional Development at Drinker Biddle

Interview Transcript

Courtney Wylie: But that’s true, they make these judgments, and so I think that’s where a lot of the shame or the need to keep it secret comes from is this idea that if people are honest about it or talk about it then it will affect their career.

Pamela: Yeah, that’s true. So tell us a little bit about some of your biggest wins Courtney.

Courtney Wylie: So I think for me I kind of fell into this perfect situation that I’m in now where I was really struggling with burnout, I was really struggling with trying to kind of regain that passionate I initially had for being a lawyer, because I love being a litigator.

But, I was hitting a point where I just was starting to hate going to work. I had been very, very lucky to have some really wonderful bosses in my life and some incredible mentors. And so one of them put me in charge of helping to train some of our new attorneys, and I started researching things I could do for them and I found that I absolutely loved doing that and that this was a way for me to really make a difference in the profession and to give back and to help people that had been in that same situation that I had been in. And so I think that was probably, I mean, I’ve had big wins professionally, but for me professionally I think that was a there kind of reconnecting to that purpose and that passion in a way that really meant something for me. And so I think that was probably the biggest one recently. Then I was very, very lucky to be asked to come to Chicago to kind of design and run some of their Leadership Professional Programs at the time.

And now I’m kind of doing the same thing in-house now in my current position. My boss, he’s been very supportive of letting me be really involved with all these different organizations and committees that are working on this well-being issues and leadership issues on how do we really change the profession for the better.

Pamela: Yes, well, what kind of legacy would you like to leave with your law practice or as being a lawyer or your life?

Courtney Wylie: Yeah, so I think for me because I don’t practice anymore other than pro bono. It’s just really important to give back. It’s not so much my practice that I want to make a difference in, but I want to know that I left the legal professional a little bit better than I found it. That’s really important to me, and then I think my legacy will be helping people to — and especially helping, I want to help all lawyers, but I think women in particular connect and make sure that they can keep that passion for being a lawyer through out.

Pamela: That’s great. Could you be willing to say a little something about participating on the Task Force and how you think hopefully will impact the legal profession and maybe even be a part of your legacy?

Courtney Wylie: I was very, very lucky to be asked to be a part of the Task Force last year. It kind of stemmed out of my position with ABA as a liaison for the Commission On Lawyers Assistant Program. And so I was a part of a Task Force and I had to kind of draft this report, which would summarize the research around lawyers and mental health issues and substance abuse and then also provide concrete recommendations for all tenants of our profession. And it was a painstaking process; there were a lot of lead authors in this, everyone did an amazing job between working full-time and then trying to put this together, it was a feat. And we had an incredible editor-in-chief who is amazing and who is also the head of the well-being committee for the ABA. Jim Croyle and Bree Buchanan were Co-Chairs of the task force were just incredible.

So there was a really great mix, I think, of people that are all really committed to this issue. I love that we did the report, and I think it’s so important, but I think… the legal profession is really slow moving.

I think it will be a long time before some of the recommendations are adopted by a lot of different organizations, but even a start lends itself to lead the way for that change that needs to happen. And a cultural change is what needs to happen. So again, those are always really slow moving.

Some of the stuff that we’re recommending is not new; there have been ADA reports and recommendations dating back as early as 1990 and the very little has been done to implement any of those.

Our hope in that because there seems to be some nationwide traction right now on those issues, we’ll get a little bit of traction going forward. But, who knows? I’m trying to stay really positive and hopeful about it.

Pamela: There is one other thing, because I was wondering about the research about the young lawyers, and I know you work the young lawyers, which is pretty startling. You want to talk just a little bit about that before we complete?

Courtney Wylie: Yeah, absolutely. So I think one of the most surprising findings from the ABA Hazelden Betty Ford research was that it kind of flipped our earlier ideas on their head of what we believe is happening in terms of mental health and substance abuse. We thought that these things got worse the longer that people were in the profession, and it turned out that that was not true that they actually declined, but the highest incidence of these things was within the first

ten years of practice and usually coming right out of school. I understand that it kind of turned previous research on its head.

I was not actually really surprised by that. I think that there is a couple of reasons for why that’s probably true. I think that the practice of law now is a little different, and the people coming into it are a whole different, obviously it’s a new generation than they were even ten or even fifteen years ago. But also the sense, I guess you could say the legal word bubble popped. Things changed a little bit in law firms. I think they have less autonomy, the pay is not quite the same but their requirements in terms of billing are much higher than they ever were.

That can lead to a feeling of a lack of control, a loss of the sense of the autonomy, which leads to a loss of a sense of engagement. The way that you kind of have to work in order to get your billable hours is very much in a silo setting so you don’t have the social interactions, and I think all of these things lend themselves to increase the risk of mental health and substance abuse disorders. And again, I’m not medical professional, but I think that there is enough research out there to say that these things can increase the risk of people dealing with these things; because it’s a difficult situation for them and that was not always the case.

There is also the issue that you kind of always feel on. You’re in this state of chronic stress because you’re expected to answer emails at all times of night whether it’s a client or a partner, and you are expected to work these long hours and there’s kind of this culture. It’s a badge of honor if you didn’t get any sleep last night and you worked 14 hours yesterday, even though that’s a terrible thing for you to do mentally. And so I think we’ve kind of created this culture where that’s the case. And, what’s interesting to me is that…especially the older generation of lawyers has a tendency to think kind of like, “Well, I used to do that too! I worked my long hours and I put in my dues.”

It’s interesting to me when I hear that because there’s a piece of me that’s like, “ But it wasn’t the same. You didn’t have email in the palm of your hand as a constant thing. A lot of times you would go home and you would be done and there would be no way to reach you except to call you at your home and that maybe happened once or twice. Once a month maybe. But, now we’re constantly available, and If you’re not constantly available it’s a negative.

And so it’s not the same that it used to be and I think there is a lack of understanding from the older generation of that fact, and I think it’s incredibly difficult to deal with when you are a young lawyer. And, you’re struggling to kind of find a good work-life balance but also want to be successful in your job. You want to be doing a good job and you want to be available and part of the team.

Pamela: Very good, I try to write about a lot of that myself. I’ve gotten good response from that because people want to feel that people understand what they’re going through. So that’s an important thing.

I’d like to wrap up our interview with a question I ask everyone which is name one thing that you do to manage your stress levels.

Courtney Wylie: I kind of do these together because they’re equally important for me, and I kind of do them together which is a little weird. So meditation and exercise are keys for me, and so I do a type of exercise that kind of has elements of mindfulness in it, and for me it just helps me center and focus and have much more energy for my day. And it’s such a noticeable difference for me when I don’t do that, so I feel stressed and anxious like “I didn’t have time to do my thing today.” And those are two things for me I think are just the most important.

Pamela: Well, Courtney thank you so much for being our Lawyer of the Week. This is actually a special report that is coming out because we want to announce that the work that the Task Force has been doing, which Courtney has been apart of, is comming out and will be available and online hopefully very soon. And we just want everyone to know and look out for it and be ready to take action to protect the well-being of lawyers in our country, well, really all over the world but as a rule the culture of lawyers and law firm. So thank you so much for being our Lawyer of the Week Courtney.

Courtney Wylie: Thank you so much for having me.

Links

http://legalexecutiveinstitute.com/justice-ecosystem-midsize-national-task-force-report-lawyers-well-being/

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2017/08/growing_concern_over.html

http://www.hazeldenbettyford.org/about-us/news-media/press-release/2016-aba-hazelden-release-first-study-attorney-substance-use

Thank you for joining Lawyer of the Week!

 

Pamela DeNeuve

Lawyer & Law Firm Strategist

feel free to email me at:

pamela@pameladleneuve.com

We Hope to See You Next Week!

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Quotes from our Lawyer of the Week

  • I am here to protect the human rights and I will do the best in my capacity to do so.
    Diana Constantinidou
  • I love this work. I really do. To me, especially now more than ever, we need a strong news media. It’s not just a business. It’s part of our democracy.
    Edward Birk
  • You don’t have to be large and on the world stage to seize these opportunities and to apprehend these threats. It really is a function of the vision and the insight of the leaders. When they get it, then there’s an opportunity for them to persuade and help their partners get the message and act to remake themselves.
    George Beaton
  • I did not intend to create this legacy, but I see the ripple effects of it, and it’s so meaningful to me. I think that through the podcast, I’m also hoping to create a legacy of service to the profession.
    Okeoma Moronu
  • That’s one of the things that I find very satisfying; building bridges between people from different countries, working closely with them and seeking those deeply satisfying relationships that are created in cross-border trade and investment facilitation.
    John Grimley
  • I’m very lucky to have a family and a wife that absolutely just creates a life that’s there and that one can go to. I think about the stress that we experience in our work, that is the best we can offer. So I really live for that. It’s something to be grateful for.
    Nic Swart
  • The legacy that I want to leave in the work that I’m doing is having made a difference and having hopefully spearheaded some type of meaningful change in the culture of the legal profession, as it relates to addiction and mental health specifically.
    Patrick Krill
  • It’s not so much my practice that I want to make a difference in, but I want to know that I left the legal professional a little bit better than I found it.
    Courtney Wylie
  • the real reality is some of the lawyers, some of the law firms, are going to be left behind because they’re not moving into the current reality where they can’t just rely on referrals.
    Montina Portis
  • When you take a lawyer out of the system, you take the voice and the ability of the people to protect themselves from overreaching government and overreaching organizations out the equation.
    Ian Connor Bifferato
  • I think a lot of attorneys are very, obviously, economically driven, which is fine, because we all need to make a living. But, at the end of the day, I also think that we are in this profession to give back and I would like to see that happen to a greater degree.
    Dr. Jeanne-Mari Reteif
  • "I would like my clients to think of me as of being a valuable resource to them and a knowledgeable resource that helped them protect their business and the most valuable assets of their business, which is their inventions, their ideas, their brand and that they remember me as somebody they could go to at any time to help them protect their intellectual property assets.
    Crystal T. Broughan
  • The person I’m looking for is the one who is going to come along and say ok; we can’t just tweak what we do with law; we have to radically re-invent it.
    Ken Grady
  • So you have to be that person who is challenged again and again so that you will grow as an expert.
    Dr. Peter MacMillan
  • I always tell my clients and my friends and colleagues, it’s a two-way road. You know- you give, and you receive, you give back, and it keeps going that way. It’s wonderful.
    Fernanda Alem-Freitas
  • In terms of successes, I will tell you, having done this, I’ve gone much further and made more connections and more friends and more inroads into the industry much earlier in my career than I ever could have possibly imagined.
    Gene Quinn
  • my thinking was that I really need to understand what clients really wanted. So in order to really do a good job, I needed to find out what moves them, what kept them up at night.
    Silvia Hodges Silverstein
  • So when we talk about a legacy, it’s a legacy that people to this day tell me — oh, I remember working with your Grandfather and he was such an upright man. Wow, let’s hope they say that about me.
    Jordan W. Charness
  • this answer made me to become a lawyer instead of a mathematician.
    Anandavasagan K.
  • What I want to try to do is create the beacon, or the light toward, developing law firm culture, as in the legal profession culture in general...where they do find a sense of meaning, purpose, connection, joy and want to stay in the profession.
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  • it is my goal to try to increase diversity within our profession, and even for as long as I’m here, I will advocate for the inclusion of different perspectives, different peoples, and different ideas that can make this world a better place.
    Robert Johnson
  • I have learned a lot of things the hard way and if I can help others sort of avoid the mistakes I’ve made and have the vision I lacked, then that’s how I want to help
    Frank Ramos
  • "I’m sort of traditional with an edge. I have respect for tradition. I have respect for history, but I’m also very inquisitive. I like to, you know, sort of architect things.
    Mark A. Cohen
  • I am all or nothing. I believe that the world has enough mediocre people. I had a mentor tell me that once and I give 110% to everything I do.
    LaKeisha Randall
  • You’ll never know how high that peak can be unless you find recovery, and with recovery, anything is possible
    Brian Cuban
  • Being able to live and work anywhere in the world. And we do live, you know- we live in one of the most beautiful places in the world, in County Cork, Ireland now.
    Walt Hampton
  • You know, the best thing that anyone could possibly do is think about what’s important to them and get back to that really basic thing. Personally, professionally, financially. You know, where would you like to be? Because you can be there if you take a couple steps, you know? And it just- it can be incremental
    Bridget Venus Grimes
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    Mark A. Torres
  • My legacy really is to try to enhance the wellness of the members of our profession and to open up this dialog.
    Heidi K. Brown
  • At the end of my days, I want people to look back and say, "Yes, he really did make the world a better place and here are some concrete examples of places where he's influenced people, or influenced organizations, or cultures." So, if I can do that and leave that to the world, then I think I've done a pretty good job.
    Maurice L. Rabb
  • Pamela helped brought us a $12MM deal and was a key player to help finalize the negotiations. She was a valuable investment for our firm with a magnificent return on our investment.
    Bill L., Chairman of Litigation
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