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Pamela DeNeuve

Lawyer & Law Firm Peak Performance Strategist

Lawyer of the Week Episode 8, Special Edition Part II – Lawyer Well-Being

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Courtney Wylie

Member of the National Task Force

on Lawyer Well-Being

Professional Development at Drinker Biddle

Interview Transcript

Pamela: Hello there, my name is Pamela DeNeuve, and I’d like to welcome you Lawyer of the Week. This week I’m very pleased to have Courtney Wylie. Courtney is a part of a committee that is looking towards lawyer well-being. She has really committed much of her life and career as a lawyer to leadership and trying to help lawyers to become their best selves while they practice law. So I’d like to introduce you to Courtney. How are you today?

Courtney Wylie: I’m good, thanks for having me.

Pamela: Courtney is currently appointed as the Young Lawyer’s Division Liaison to the Commission on Lawyer Assistance Programs for the American Bar Association. She is also a current appointed member of the National Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being. The task force (a coalition of ABA and non-ABA entities) are working to address and disseminate findings and recommendations for the legal profession regarding attorney well-being in light of disturbing recent research.

Prior to joining DBR, Courtney Wylie worked at the University of Chicago Law School as the Associate Director of Student Affairs & Programs. In this position, she was primarily responsible for the Keystone Leadership and Professional Program and the Kapnick Leadership Development Initiative.

Prior to joining the University of Chicago Law School, Courtney was an Assistant Attorney General for the State of Illinois. She practiced in the General Law Bureau — Torts Division representing State actors and agencies in civil torts litigation. Previously, in private practice, Courtney defended claims in professional liability matters and medical malpractice. She also represented comprehensive general liability insurers in complex coverage disputes and bad faith litigation. As an associate attorney, she represented professionals in disciplinary disputes before state professional regulation and licensing boards.

Based on nominations by her peers and in recognition of her professional achievements, Courtney was named to the 2014 & 2015 Super Lawyers list of “Rising Stars,” an honor accorded to only 2.5% of lawyers in Illinois (age 40 and under).

So that’s a lot, thank you Courtney.

Courtney Wylie: No problem.

Pamela: So happy to have you as the Lawyer of the Week, and we’re actually having a special edition to let people know that the American Bar Association and many groups are interested in the well-being of lawyers. So Courtney, the first question I want to ask you is what made you decide to become a lawyer?

Courtney Wylie: My undergraduate degree is in communications, and I was studying to be a television producer, and while I was working as an assistant producer we had a situation that involved needing to interact with lawyers, and it was funny because I just really enjoyed kind of seeing how they thought and how they represented the case and at the time my general manager made a joke that I was the only person that actually enjoyed meeting with the lawyers and I should actually think about going to law school. And so I kind of thought about it and then I took the LSAT and I did well and I applied and the rest is kind of history.

Pamela: How wonderful, tell me a little bit about what your biggest challenges have been?

Courtney Wylie: I think my biggest challenges have been probably struggling a little bit with mental health and how that fit into being a lawyer. I suffer from major depressive disorder, and for me I’m a very type A personality and I tend to be very high achiever, and for me, especially when I was a young lawyer. I didn’t know how to reconcile those two things and so I really let a lot of self-care go by the wayside, personally because I was both ashamed of my condition, but also because I didn’t know how to ask for help or how to get help in an appropriate way at that time. So I think that was my biggest challenge was kind of going through those struggles and learning how to balance both, and also kind of realizing that you can be really good at your job and not be well. So that was the difference and that’s not necessarily a good thing to be, either.

Pamela: Yes, in my research and reading generally bright, ambitious and maybe even a lot of type A individuals who may become lawyers have a tendency to be depressed, have you found that to be your experience as well?

Courtney Wylie: I think that there are certain personality types that definitely lend themselves to that condition a little bit more than others maybe. But when you look at the research, I mean lawyers go into law school with the same levels of depression as the general population, and it changes dramatically from that first year to when they come out of law school in terms of our numbers in depression and anxiety and stress. So I don’t think that we’re more prone necessarily going in, but I do think that the way that we’re taught to think without being taught the counter balances of some of that can lend itself a little bit more to harmful thinking. For example, we’re trained in law school to find the issues, find the problems, find the flaws constantly, both in someone else’s argument, in the situation; but that kind of thinking is hard to shut off when it comes to yourself or personal relationship or family or friend.

And the way that you’re taught to think is very black and white, very win or lose, right or wrong; and that’s necessary to an extent but then the other ways of combating that thinking and making sure that it’s not spilling over into your personal life and you’re thinking about yourself is not being taught currently with that if that makes sense.

Pamela: Oh yes it absolutely does. I was actually thinking about a client of mine and they’re having a crisis in their family, and I can just see the lawyerly thought is winning out when it should be more a parental thought, and the lawyer’s reasoning — the way of reasoning a lot of time impedes progress within the family and on a personal level.

Courtney Wylie: And I think it’s hard too because I think for lawyers, again, we’re trained that way because it does make you a successful lawyer. So if you’re successful and it work for you in one area of your life it’s really normal to try and use that same strategy or tactics in these other areas of your life where it might not be so successful. Because it’s worked so well for you at work. So it’s this interesting dichotomy that we kind of have to deal with as lawyers.

Pamela: I want to ask you one other thing because I really appreciate your honesty. I have had to myself overcome depression so I understand a lot and when I work with my clients I understand a lot of what they’re going through. Tell me a little bit about whether you think the shame or the way lawyers try to hide this because of the stigma within the legal profession.

Courtney Wylie: I think part of it too is the reality of our profession, a little bit is that so much of being a good lawyer and being successful is your reputation and it’s also your ability to persuade other people to trust you, trust your judgment, trust in your abilities and that’s true whether you’re trying to get a jury to trust you or a client or opposing counsel or the judge.

The reality is that right or wrong people do make judgments when they hear that you suffer from these things. They do make the mistake and assumption that it can affect your judgments if you’re honest about it. What I think is interesting is that not being honest about it are the things that affect your judgment more.

(To be continued in part II)

Links

http://legalexecutiveinstitute.com/justice-ecosystem-midsize-national-task-force-report-lawyers-well-being/

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2017/08/growing_concern_over.html

http://www.hazeldenbettyford.org/about-us/news-media/press-release/2016-aba-hazelden-release-first-study-attorney-substance-use

Thank you for joining Lawyer of the Week!

 

Pamela DeNeuve

Lawyer & Law Firm Strategist

feel free to email me at:

pamela@pameladleneuve.com

We Hope to See You Next Week!

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