Mark Larivee
Attorney Tax Specialist
Helping Lawyers Avoid the Tax Trap
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Interview Transcript
Pamela: Hi, my name is Pamela and welcome to Lawyer of the Week. Today we’re very honored and pleased to have our guest, Mark Larivee. And let me tell you a little bit about Mark. Mark is the Founder and CEO the Aurium Group, Inc. Mark’s unique ability is to take complex strategies and communicate them in an understandable manner. He’s built a team of individuals with specialties that allow them to create dynamic strategies for specific markets.
Mark was raised in Detroit, Michigan and attended Eastern Michigan University. He is a lifetime member of the Million Dollar Roundtable, which means that he is among the most elite group of agents in his industry. He is also an owner/member of FFR First Freedom Resources, which is one of the most elite and prestigious producer groups in the US. This membership provides Mark with the resources needed to solve the most difficult challenges faced by service firms and law firms around the U.S. Welcome, Mark.
Mark: Thanks for having me.
Pamela: We’re so pleased to have you as a guest on Lawyer of the Week and I’d like to ask you the Lawyer the Week questions. So I know that you work specifically with lawyers- and can you tell us what made you decide to work with lawyers?
Mark: About six years ago- I’ve been in the business thirty years- about six years ago, I was fortunate enough to acquire as a client one of the AM 100 law firms and we’ve done some great work over a period that has just been really fun for both sides. And then at the same time, I also started working with a smaller law firm with six partners and doing an entirely different transaction. But again, it was fun and it’s been fun and it’s worked. And I just found those two experiences to be really enjoyable and profitable for the firms and I make a living, and so it’s been a win-win-win.
Pamela: Okay, so probably a lot of our guests- or our listeners- are saying, “Well, what do you do exactly?” So what pain did you see in the legal community and with legal professionals that made you decide you- that you could somehow help them and help them with what?
Mark: Well, I’m gonna start with the individual attorneys. I work on two levels: I work with the individual attorneys and I work with itself but I’ll start with the individual attorneys. So they’re doing a great job- almost across the country- what you see our partners funding their pension plan towards retirement and doing the best they can. And they’re- unfortunately for them, there’s a couple of challenges there, the biggest one being they’re not really allowed to put away enough money sometimes. So we have two things that we do that really helped with their projected retirement.
One if you’ve had a great year this year and you’ve maxed out your pension plan but you- if you could, you’d put another $250K, $300K away for your retirement on a pre-tax basis, we can show you how to get that done. It’s not- it’s not part of your pension plan.
Well, we can show you how to avoid the taxes on that for now and push it into your retirement years. And when you’re having those great years, you know, that’s a great opportunity to help with your retirement. And then, number two, we have this tax trap. So what I’ve seen is that, unfortunately, the legal community- the lawyers- they don’t have any time.
And so they fund up their pension plan because that’s the most- the most easily readable, available opportunity for them. So they fund the pension plan and that’s great, but they haven’t had the time to figure out what it’s gonna really look like. And in ten minutes- so very quickly- I can show them.
I have this lady I worked with and she is doing a great job of funding her retirement. She’s young- she’s in her 50s- so she’s gonna have about $8MM in her pension plan and she’s gonna realize $15MM of retirement income- you know, in a thirty year period. And that’s great.
Unfortunately, if she does nothing, she’s gonna have to give about $5MM of that to the U.S. government and so, that’s a- that’s a pretty big number and one that she’s never seen before because nobody really focuses on the retirement years. They focus on getting to the retirement. So I showed her that and then I was able to- we were able to- develop a process for her so she can pay that $5MM dollar bill at twenty cents on the dollar. So that really made, you know, a great amount of sense for her and we’re happy to come to that conclusion.
Pamela: So what you’re saying is, someone like her that would have had like $15MM dollars in her, retirement fund would have had to pay $5MM, or 33% percent of that, thereabouts, for taxes?
Mark: Well, if you think about it, what we’ve always been taught- at least what I was taught- was you’re gonna retire in a lower tax bracket.
Pamela: Right.
Mark: Well, if she’s gonna retire with fifteen million and a pension plan and spend it, she’s not gonna be in a lower tax bracket. And, in fact, if you look at the history of taxation, there’s a decent chance your tax isn’t gonna be 33%percent- it’s gonna be 40% or 50% because we have this- we have this government debt problem and they’re gonna have to get the money from somewhere.
So taxes are actually historically low in this tax bracket that we’re in today. Don’t wanna- you know, who knows? But I’m able to discount that by 80% so that our $5MM dollar bill is getting paid with $1MM million dollars.
Pamela: So you’re able- you’re able to say, she’s able to have access to her money and not- and pay how many million, as opposed to $15MM?
Mark: Well, she gets $15MM, she pays $5MM, now she pays $1MM.
Pamela: Oh, wow! So she gets to keep $4MM for herself?
Mark: Yes- yeah. And she does it now, while she can afford to because she’s working with revenue.
Pamela: Right.
Mark: So it’s just- it’s a no-brainer almost when you look at it, Pamela. This is really great!
Pamela: Wow. Wow. So what about- you mentioned AM 100 law firms- how do you help them?
Mark: So what I’ve pretty much consistently seen- I’ve met with numerous firms- is that they have an expense item that uh- it’s a six-figure expense item for them, usually, because they’re a pretty large firm and it’s to cover an obligation and they need- they need the benefit but they’re most likely never going to receive it. And I’m talking about life insurance.
So they’re their partners for some nominal amount because it’s part of their obligation to the partners, but the reality is it’s a term insurance, so it’s never going to bring any benefit. And I’m able to take that six-figure expense item and turn it into one of the firm’s largest assets, given- given five to ten years. So now what was an expense item is an asset and it’s been fabulous, actually.
And then- and then for smaller firms, the biggest challenge they have- I have a firm I worked east and six partners- three of them are older- my age- 60s- 60 to 65, getting ready to retire and they’re trying to figure out how to move the business and the value of the business down to these younger partners and that’s- in our country, with our tax code, that’s a very tough thing to accomplish. And we’ve developed a transaction for them that, you know, that they’ve executed that’s working.
Pamela: So if I understand correctly then, you can look at a lawyers who are, you know, generally, for the most part, in a higher income bracket- and look at them- I guess you’d say holistically- and what taxes- you know, which taxes or whatever it is- law firm or individual- would pay and you’re able to guide them and actually enroll them in programs that will save them substantial amount of money, lower their tax obligation and give them more money in their pocket?
Mark: Yes, yes. And especially, I’m focusing more on- while reducing current taxes and then maximizing retirement, so go ahead and fund that pension plan. Listen, that’s a great deal. Unfortunately, you’re limited to some number- usually I see $50K- $60K and, you know, some of these- some of these partners are making, you know, even seven-figure incomes.
And they’d put away more if they could but they can’t end their pension plan. The government doesn’t allow it. So we- yes, we can help with that and then we can also help, as I said, on the retirement side. Once you’re retired, we can- I call it tax insurance- we have this program that reduces- doesn’t reduce your tax, it pays it more effectively. Five times more effectively.
Pamela: Okay, so what if, you know- I imagine if they’re in the seven figure bracket, they may have an agent or someone- they have a broker or someone who’s handling their portfolio and most- I- you know, from what I understand- most partners or law firms kind of in a way blindly- they find someone they think they believe they can trust and then they kind of blindly follow what it is that they tell us to do- so what do you say to these individuals or what would you say to these individuals that you offer that maybe their broker would not be able to offer them or something that basically at least ask questions about?
Mark: Well, we’re not in competition. I don’t manage money. I have in the past but I don’t manage money anymore. So- so if they’ve got a broker that’s managing money for them, good for- you know, good for them and good for him. That’s fine. I have specialized programs that are designed to do specialized things.
And so, I think that certainly, they can bring their broker in at some point and have him- you know, him or her, you know, look at it and say, “Yeah, this makes sense for you.” But- but I do things that, you know- we’ve developed stuff that nobody’s developed. You talked real briefly about this- FFR- you know, that’s 200 of the smartest people on the planet in the financial services business. I mean, these people are really bright. Really bright. Men and women. And we all work together as a team.
So, you know, we’ll look at it- it’s not a program- we look at- we’ll look at you holistically and say, “We can help you- YOU- in this way. We can help this person in this way.” And sometimes- you know, I’m not saying it’s a cure-all for everybody but I do think that in 10 minutes- I’m pretty time sensitive. I know lawyers, you know, by the- by the hour or by the minute, and so I’m not gonna waste their time at all. Or mine.
Pamela: Okay. So basically- I just want to just reiterate- so the pain that you saw- just briefly- that you saw that made you really want to focus on these lawyers and law firms was?
Mark: Well, I think the legal community is unique I love working with the legal community. And why? Well, lawyers are invariably smart. I mean, they’re always smart and that actually helps me because it’s- it’s much easier to explain things- and I do take complicated ideas and make them simple. So smart people- much easier to deal with a really smart person than not.
They’re ethical. I mean they’re lawyers, you know, they’re attorneys. So they’re gonna have to be ethical. They’re successful and they’ve got- they’ve got a pain- sorry- they’ve got a pain point. They’re so successful that they’re paying a lot of money in taxes. So all those things combined- to say, I’m working with people I like and I’m bringing them value. And if I can do that- you know, if I can do that, it’s pretty fun.
Pamela: That’s wonderful. So what are some of the obstacles that you have run into in your- in your opportunity- in your quest for success?
Mark: I think it’s the same as it is for the legal community. There’s a start-up pain- you know, learning the business that you’re in, so learning to be an attorney or learning to be, you know, good at financial services- as a loose statement- I’m much more specialized than that.
Then identifying the market that you want to work in. For an attorney, the analogy is, you know, I work with mergers and acquisitions. That’s something I like, okay? So I found the legal community is my specialty. And then it’s marketing- you know, I have things that are valuable to lawyers- successful lawyers- but how do I get that out there in an effective way?
Pamela: Okay, all right. And what would you say to those who maybe- you know- since you’re successful and one of our- my goals- in the Lawyer of the Week is to encourage and empower others to be successful. So my question to you is, what advice do you have for anyone who’s struggling to meet their goals for success?
Mark: Well, I have a couple things I’d say. I guess one, you know, get with a good firm that’s gonna support you- and some firms do a better job of that than other firms- find a firm that’s gonna support you. But- you know, I’m a big believer in coaching and I have- I have relationships with some coaches that I’m happy to share if somebody wants them.
I used to be a member of a program called Strategic Coach for ten years and they taught me a lot. And, you know, and then the last- I have a book I would recommend called “The 12-Week Year”. I just read it and went through it with, you know, workshop with some people and a pretty fabulous book. But, you know, as my dad told me, find something you love to do. So as a lawyer, find the niche that you like and then you’ll want to come to work every day.
Pamela: Yes, yes.
Mark: Figure out the marketing. That’s- I think that’s the hardest thing.
Pamela: Absolutely. So now, um- can you tell me what legacy you’d like to leave, Mark?
Mark: My legacy more revolves around my kids. So I have six kids- there’s a picture right there behind me- six kids. They’re all wonderful. I can’t call them kids anymore- two of them are still kids. They’re 15 and 12 but the rest of them are all in their twenties and, you know, they’re all great people.
And I’d want to give them what my dad gave me: work ethic and find a job that you love. And then you’ll want to come to work every day. You know, that’s what he taught me. He’s a legend in the automotive business, he’s a member of a Hall of Fame, and, you know, people ask for his autograph.
He’s a great, great guy. But what’d he teach me? He taught me to come to work every day and he taught me to find- “Mark, find something you like to do- that you love to do. And if you can do that then you won’t even-” like I don’t plan on retiring, actually. I plan on doing the stuff I love to do and maybe I’ll travel a little more I want to keep working. I like what I do. It’s fun and I like the people I work with.
Pamela: Wonderful, wonderful! Six children- how many boys, how many girls?
Mark: Three of each.
Pamela: Three of each?
Mark: Girl, girl, boy, boy, boy, girl.
Pamela: Okay. And I bet your youngest must be a daddy’s girl, huh?
Mark: Depends on, you know, what age she is- right now she’s not because she’s 13.
Pamela: Okay, yeah.
Mark: She was, and is. You know, you see the cycle- when you have six of them, you see it’s a pretty routine cycle- if you will- of, you know, them growing up.
Pamela: Wonderful. I’m sure that they are proud of you as their dad- on a good day.
Mark: My one son’s 21 and he went to my most recent meeting at the AM 100 law firm and walked out and said, “Wow!” I mean, eight people in the room- you know, I think six men and two women- and I mean the brainpower was pretty- pretty impressive, ya know?
It makes it really- you know- he said, “I couldn’t even understand what you were talking about for the first hour. But by the third hour, I was gettin’ it.” So that was pretty fun. I’d love to have one of them come into the business. I don’t know that they will. I can’t- I want them to find what they love. Doesn’t have to be here.
Pamela: Yeah.
Mark: I don’t- I don’t work in the automotive business. My dad does.
Pamela: Yeah, yeah. Wonderful, wonderful. Well, our final question is, tell me- or tell us- what you do to relieve stress?
Mark: Well, I have two things: music. So I’m a huge music fan. I live in Colorado Springs. So for those of you out there that love concerts and have never been to Red Rocks, call me. I’ll- I’ll educate you on how to do it. I might even join ya. I love music and then I love to travel.
So like- I like to go to Europe- you know, I like to go to the islands. I’ve been in every state in the United States except Alaska and I’m planning on going there. But I like to travel and I like to really actually get into the little towns, so I’m not a- I like New York but, you know- but I’m not a Chicago or Detroit person. I’m a Colorado Springs person. I like the towns. I go to Italy. I like Rome but I really like, actually, the small towns in Tuscany better. Those walled- you know- medieval towns are pretty fun.
Pamela: Wow, that’s wonderful.
Mark: So travel and music.
Pamela: Wonderful. Well, Mark, we really appreciate you being our guest on Lawyer of the Week. It was very educational and informative. And to my audience, thank you for joining us and we hope to you see you again next week.
Mark: Thank you.
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